tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6402897002923207828.post1750425103681823422..comments2024-02-12T01:24:37.045-08:00Comments on Matt Stevens - Notes From The Wilderness: Why am I starting to charge for Ghost now? Do I believe all music should be free?TFATDHQhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06244822804267078728noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6402897002923207828.post-53018142984981253522011-12-29T12:54:24.813-08:002011-12-29T12:54:24.813-08:00Well, if you intend to live off your music, it'...Well, if you intend to live off your music, it's probably better to charge for it. just my 2 cents.Ugo Capetohttp://ugocapeto.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6402897002923207828.post-3301193845507811462011-12-13T02:09:37.107-08:002011-12-13T02:09:37.107-08:00hahahaha always useful advice :)hahahaha always useful advice :)TFATDHQhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06244822804267078728noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6402897002923207828.post-77229360018036774262011-12-13T02:05:57.133-08:002011-12-13T02:05:57.133-08:00@warren, errrr.... that they go and get a proper j...@warren, errrr.... that they go and get a proper jobRHackerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01765242931150410240noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6402897002923207828.post-43643804817538230162011-12-13T01:22:08.723-08:002011-12-13T01:22:08.723-08:00Save up £50,000 and spend it carefully on promotin...Save up £50,000 and spend it carefully on promoting your music is the alternative or do it slow and steady like me.TFATDHQhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06244822804267078728noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6402897002923207828.post-50754046523361012192011-12-12T19:00:52.270-08:002011-12-12T19:00:52.270-08:00I never really thought about RHacker's approac...I never really thought about RHacker's approach. I have a question for RHacker. Many folk who are unknown and don't have the ability to do many live events, give their music away for free as a promo tool. What would you suggest as an alternative?Warrenhttp://www.invisibleagent.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6402897002923207828.post-15974474255364494312011-12-12T10:02:13.869-08:002011-12-12T10:02:13.869-08:00Ahh - i was on London pub prices :)Ahh - i was on London pub prices :)TFATDHQhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06244822804267078728noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6402897002923207828.post-50033441028102887202011-12-12T09:49:11.603-08:002011-12-12T09:49:11.603-08:00Well, £8 is more than 2 pints - in Glasgow at leas...Well, £8 is more than 2 pints - in Glasgow at least.<br /><br />Anything above that, would maybe need some sort of perceived added value, like a physical item, not necessarily the CD.<br /><br />At a merch stand at the back of a gig, I'd probably charge a bit more of a premium.Garethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09994151427026264258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6402897002923207828.post-34977713393000262752011-12-12T09:29:58.375-08:002011-12-12T09:29:58.375-08:00Mmm yeah there is a logic to this argument (from m...Mmm yeah there is a logic to this argument (from my time in retail i know its true), although i'm not sure I'd feel comfortable charging a lot more than 7 or 8 quid for a download. I'm not sure but i see the logic.TFATDHQhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06244822804267078728noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6402897002923207828.post-8232963923357960782011-12-12T09:26:13.787-08:002011-12-12T09:26:13.787-08:00A friend of a friend of mine, who is a full time D...A friend of a friend of mine, who is a full time DiY artist of some repute said something along the lines of: either make your music free or expensive; anything but cheap. Free is a gift, 'expensive' is a living; cheap is just cheap, in every sense of the word.<br /><br />I would like to think any music that I produce is worth more than just a couple of pints of beer to someone given how much effort has gone in to its production.<br /><br />On the other hand if I gift the music (in exchange for an email address, say) then I'd hope for some reciprocal token in exchange. Like bums on seats, or a purchase of some merchandise or cd, spreading the name to their friends or even a pint.<br /><br />What would cheapen it for everyone is if I sold my wares for the price of a pint or two. I might be off base but I'd feel that the perception would be that I don't value *my* work all that much and that the punter shouldn't either. Because I'm 'only' charging two pints worth, if that, and then going to spam them with emails, why should they bother. <br /><br />I'm undecided what tactic I'll employ when our first album is ready to go but I tell you one thing, it won't be cheap.Garethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09994151427026264258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6402897002923207828.post-37470604539486023352011-12-12T09:22:38.198-08:002011-12-12T09:22:38.198-08:00Agreed - I'm really tempted to pull my stuff f...Agreed - I'm really tempted to pull my stuff from Spotify now.TFATDHQhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06244822804267078728noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6402897002923207828.post-25989924107760642172011-12-12T09:21:14.545-08:002011-12-12T09:21:14.545-08:00Hey Matt, great discussion you've started here...Hey Matt, great discussion you've started here. At this point, it looks like streaming -- i.e. Spotify -- is not going to be an indie artist's game. As streaming becomes more ubiquitous listeners looking for non-mainstream music will have to still be comfortable with downloads or physical media -- otherwise, they won't be able to hear it! Just as indie artists have had to operate outside the channels of the big music biz, so they'll have to do outside the streaming model. Or so it seems at this point anyway.James Beaudreauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11088692326828963333noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6402897002923207828.post-29409940135312358692011-12-12T09:01:03.458-08:002011-12-12T09:01:03.458-08:00Thanks Rob, really glad you like the music, much a...Thanks Rob, really glad you like the music, much appreciated man :) <br /><br />Totally agree to build a serious audience:<br /><br /> "The only way to do that is through financial investment, like 40 to 50k just for a mid sized indie band" <br /><br />I thing often people don't realise this is the sort of investment required. Sure you can build slowly through social media but this will takes years rather than months. Its took me 5 years to reach the level of obscurity I am at now :) <br /><br />And knowing where to spend it is the key and working out how to get that kind of investment without losing all control to the industry it the hard bit. Do I have any answers? Not really because anyone investing is going to want something in return, its very difficult. <br /><br />Word of mouth does work really well if you do have a viral hit - my mate Jon Gomm has seen his audience grow really quickly after having a million plus views on his Youtube video.<br /><br />I'm not really an evangelist for the old industry or the give everything away free lot - I want to take the best from the past and the present. Musicians who want a serious audience will need some of the skills a label can offer, whether they pay someone to do it or they sign directly to the label. <br /><br />What I think needs to happen when all the dust settles is this compromise. <br /><br />The main problem I can see is how do you recoup that 50 grand investment when we move to streaming via services like Spotify?<br /><br />I have no idea! :)TFATDHQhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06244822804267078728noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6402897002923207828.post-90493845713970770462011-12-12T08:47:50.527-08:002011-12-12T08:47:50.527-08:00dear matt and john, firstly can i declare myself, ...dear matt and john, firstly can i declare myself, my name’s robert hacker jessett, i don’t like doing this in a spineless anonymous way, and i want to make clear also when i use the term ‘you’ or ‘looking at yourself’ this is ‘you’; as in the 3rd person pronoun (alternative to ‘one’ – which sounds a bit posh to me) i am in fact a fan of your music matt, but i’m not a fan of giving away music for free and i stand by every word i’ve written, as for people waffling on about the difference between the value and price of something.... well, i’ll leave those sort of platitudes and semantics for the oscar wilde scholars.<br /><br />before people out there cast aspersions upon myself , may i just give you a bit of background as someone who’s been in bands and around the music world for the last 30 years, band-wise, i’ve been signed up, dropped, ripped off, stitched up, toured, played to 2 men and a dog in a dive bar in peckham, 1000s at a big festival, been a part of deals with rough trade, one little indian, had publishing deals with chrysalis and booking agreements with various bookers including asgard, apart from that i was a part of one of the most audacious attempts to circumvent the industry with my current band (morton valence) raising £20k by selling %s of our 1st album to fans, so i think that makes me qualified to have an opinion on a subject which i feel passionate about john.<br /><br />i never said a record deal was any kind of panacea, but then neither is the new media, and believe you me i know all about artists getting stitched up by cockroaches in the industry, but again this point goes back to my fundamental point which is if musicians allow themselves to be exploited they do a disservice to all musicians, be it signing a terrible contract, or giving music away for free, it's symptomatic of the same thing that has been going on since time immemorial, exploiting artists (it's a bit like shooting fish in a barrel) it’s very easy to take advantage of a kid with a dream, and there’s plenty of people out there who are more than happy to oblige.<br /><br />i have no love for the old school industry, i can think of dozens of instances of real talent being left to rot and the dross getting all the props... sure, who hasn’t? but what i would say, when there were gatekeepers as such at least it limited the numbers, the problem now is music is a preposterously overcrowded market place, this is because anyone who cares to pick up a guitar, learn a bit of garageband and do a bit of social networking can make an "album", and they do, no matter how questionable their actual talents, this may be democracy, but the net result is a lot of charlatans out there flooding out the market with free “music” which in my opinion is probably free because in all likelihood it’s worthless, moreover it has a negative effect on ALL artists, good, bad or average, including you matt.<br /><br />but if you’re happy doing niche music to a small audience (as i am) then i would suggest this conversation is kind of pointless and we can plough on and probably outlast all the wannabes. however, when you talk about getting a bigger audience, i understand that as the opposite, i.e. hitting some sort of critical mass or “making it” as such. The only way to do that is through financial investment, like 40 to 50k just for a mid sized indie band, either you’re already loaded or you do some sort of business deal, that business deal will usually mean either a label, publisher or booker, or all 3. can you give me an example of an artist who’s sold to a big audience (i’m talking 100 000+) and circumvented the industry, with or without the internet i can’t think of a single one (don’t believe the hype about the arctic monkeys or the magic numbers... industry bullshit).<br /><br />but like you i don't really care about that world and i'm happy ploughing my own furrow, so i guess this conversation is poitless.<br /><br />keep playing the cool music matt.<br />robRHackerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01765242931150410240noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6402897002923207828.post-26752413104886958382011-12-12T04:54:55.232-08:002011-12-12T04:54:55.232-08:00I think gurdonark makes a great point...it's a...I think gurdonark makes a great point...it's about the artist having a choice. Just because you make music, doesn't mean you're supposed to or have the right to make a career out of it.<br /><br />There are many ways of doing this, and all we can do is to try and hope that our music resonates with other people. If you find that fanbase, then you can start thinking about where you want to go with your music.<br /><br />A great example is Cloudkicker...he's a guy with a day job who makes music for fun, and let's people download it for free, not even for an email. People started talking about it and sharing it, and eventually he started selling cd's because there was a demand for it.<br /><br />But he still has his day job, and has no plans of leaving it. No touring either, and all the money he makes he invests back into the music. And you can still download all his music for free.<br /><br />And that's just one way of doing it. The major obstacle is to have a big enough fanbase, after that it's up to the artist to do what feels right to him or her.<br /><br />And @RHacker, you can't equate price with value. I have many things I got for free that I value very much. And I only value my refrigerator to the extent that it keeps my food cold. But I would feel the same way about it whether it cost me 5 or 500 bucks.Ernesto Schnackhttp://ernestoschnack.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6402897002923207828.post-45151362830343671592011-12-12T04:42:01.693-08:002011-12-12T04:42:01.693-08:00So here's my take on it, based on my own behav...So here's my take on it, based on my own behaviour towards you and other artists doing similar things:<br /><br />You create interesting music. It is off the beaten track and so the people that find you are (like me) typically going to be people who are looking off the beaten track. They are interested in interesting music, want to explore it, test it out and understand it (as well as enjoying it). If they find something that's not interesting, then they move on. If they are interested in sticking around and finding out what else the artist is creating, then they will do. <br /><br />They are also interested in the artist themselves, what they are doing, what is inspiring their music, where they are heading, what else they are listening too etc. etc.<br /><br />Because I am interested, I am happy to invest. When I find music that interests me, I will almost always pay, even when there is a free option. I will also pay more than just a token amount. The relationship is symbiotic.<br /><br />So. To me, what you are doing makes perfect sense <b>as long as </b> you continue to keep some (or all) of your <i>new</i> material available. That way people will continue to find you (as you now are) and can then invest to find out what you were then (e.g. Ghost). I understand that music can be streamed, but I think that there is still a genuine investment in being able to download (even for free). Firstly, you get the contacts base, as you say...but as a consumer, I have done something affirmative and I suspect that that has some psychological value too.<br /><br />Anyway, keep up the great work in all your roles as solo artist, band member (and dad too)!!!aneyeonbinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6402897002923207828.post-70853150574276372272011-12-12T03:32:22.462-08:002011-12-12T03:32:22.462-08:00Thanks - to be honest when I looked at all the dea...Thanks - to be honest when I looked at all the deals I was offered (by some of the best know Prog/Post rock indies) I wouldn't able to the pay the rent after signing so it wouldn't have been an option anyway. The definition of profit seemed hard to fathom and I wanted complete control over the music so all in all it made sense to stay indie. I'm not closed off to options in the future thou, I'm still hopeful.<br /><br />I would like some help thou and I'm working with some people in the new year so hopefully that will work out :)TFATDHQhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06244822804267078728noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6402897002923207828.post-32769022222736926392011-12-12T03:26:16.079-08:002011-12-12T03:26:16.079-08:00@RHacker Spoken like a person who knows nothing ab...@RHacker Spoken like a person who knows nothing about the music industry. Or musicians.<br /><br />A record deal is not a panacea. In fact, it's a millstone. The record company doesn't pay for anything at all - they loan you money out of future sales which you pay back from your cut of the profits - *after* they've taken the lion's share of that themselves.<br /><br />So if they plough a million quid into promoting your album, you need to pay that back before you see any money yourself. And if they only give you 30p per CD sold, you can do the maths yourself as to how many discs you would need to sell.<br /><br />Why would any musician choose to go that route now that the Internet and prosumer recording technology have given them the option not to? Musicians want to make music, and, if they're lucky, eke out a living doing so. Matt seems to have managed that admirably - why would ever consider handing that freedom over to a record company in return for massive debt and the loss of creative control?John Sullivannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6402897002923207828.post-41266807368113264952011-12-12T03:24:38.572-08:002011-12-12T03:24:38.572-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03266028702602769993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6402897002923207828.post-34262666698660496862011-12-12T03:11:35.124-08:002011-12-12T03:11:35.124-08:00I've already turned down all of the above beca...I've already turned down all of the above because you don't make as much money as doing it yourself when you only sell a few thousand records like I do. <br /><br />The only way to sell more would be though a marketing spend that would be impossible to recoup, a sync or some kind of freak viral. <br /><br />I make weird esoteric music and for a small audience. This makes me happy :)TFATDHQhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06244822804267078728noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6402897002923207828.post-68755107993937745482011-12-12T03:07:30.949-08:002011-12-12T03:07:30.949-08:00you get a publishing deal, recording deal or sign ...you get a publishing deal, recording deal or sign up with a decent booking agent, if you can't manage any of those things, maybe it's time to take a long hard look at yourself and ask why.RHackerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01765242931150410240noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6402897002923207828.post-71826149030606538562011-12-12T03:01:31.051-08:002011-12-12T03:01:31.051-08:00How do you sell music to an audience you don't...How do you sell music to an audience you don't have?<br /><br />Do you invest in marketing to get this audience? <br /><br />What is your projection to recoup?TFATDHQhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06244822804267078728noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6402897002923207828.post-48468799612462727772011-12-12T02:29:35.006-08:002011-12-12T02:29:35.006-08:00i'm not talking marketing strategies here or t...i'm not talking marketing strategies here or touting for syncs etc, i'm talking about the big picture, as in the devaluation of music as a whole - which to me <b><i>IS</i></b> totally simple, yes, not least due to redundant "musicians" giving away their "music" for free which has helped perpetuate the general consensus out there of 'hey, why should i pay for it?' people don't feel like that every time they step into a shoe shop or sit down in a restaurant because they have respect for the fact that shoes and food aren't free to produce. but not for music... people who give music away for free undermine the value of music as a whole for everybody.... simple, yes it is!!!RHackerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01765242931150410240noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6402897002923207828.post-16683336765987523792011-12-12T02:04:35.997-08:002011-12-12T02:04:35.997-08:00RH Hacker - It's not as simple as that.
If yo...RH Hacker - It's not as simple as that.<br /><br />If you give your music away in exchange for an email address (as I have done) is that still free?<br /><br />How much would it cost to get 3000 email addresses through conventional marketing? <br /><br />What do you think?TFATDHQhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06244822804267078728noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6402897002923207828.post-47463334202420455482011-12-12T01:30:30.182-08:002011-12-12T01:30:30.182-08:00people who give their music away for free are in e...people who give their music away for free are in effect saying "my music is worthless" and are responsible for the entire devaluation of music as a whole.RHackerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01765242931150410240noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6402897002923207828.post-53212523467196906742011-12-11T20:45:26.832-08:002011-12-11T20:45:26.832-08:00With Pallas we also try to keep a balance and by C...With Pallas we also try to keep a balance and by Christmas will have given 4 FREE tracks in the last 12 months. We want to let people have a chance to listen to the band's music as well as being able to give away things that may not be suited to an album (musically or timing wise).<br /><br />All the more power to your elbow sir, after all nappies aren't free ;-)geoff bankshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01440341155287736497noreply@blogger.com